In the Energy News Beat – Conversation in Energy with Stuart Turley talks with Douglas Sandridge, an oil and gas executive advocating for nuclear energy, and Martin Hjelmeland, an energy conference organizer from Norway. They discuss Norway's energy transition from relying on oil and gas to exploring nuclear power, highlighting the enthusiastic public response to nuclear at a recent offshore technology conference. Despite political resistance and challenges, they express optimism for the future of nuclear energy in both Norway and the U.S., emphasizing its critical role in achieving net-zero emissions.
This podcast was filmed while Doug and Martin were at the Norwegian energy conference, and I am looking forward to following up on the political landscape. We cannot even talk about Net Zero without nuclear energy. If the world wants to move away from oil and gas, nuclear has to be improved and rolled out.
Thank you Doug and Martin for your time! I enjoyed our conversation. - Stu
Follow and connect with Doug on his LinkedIn HERE: https://www.linkedin.com/in/douglas-c-sandridge-63996312/
Martin's LinkedIn HERE: https://www.linkedin.com/in/hjelmeland/
Highlights of the Podcast
00:00 - Intro
01:02 - Norway's Oil History
02:33 - Norway's Energy Sobriety
06:50 - Norway's Shift to Nuclear
07:24 - Energy Panels and Public Response
09:10 - Norwegian Nuclear Executives' Reluctance
14:03 - U.S. Nuclear Prospects
17:03 - Advanced Reactors and Waste Reprocessing
19:59 - Energy Industry's Role in Nuclear Development
21:49 - Martin Hjelmeland Joins
24:35 - Political Shifts and Hope for Nuclear
26:22 - Closing Remarks
The ENB substack HERE:
The Energy News Beat site:
https://energynewsbeat.co/
Automated Transcript:
My name is Stu Turley, president CEO, The Sandstone Group. I'll tell you what net zero is not going to happen. Is that is a shock. You haven't been listening to the podcast. The only way that we are going to get to net zero is with nuclear. And I am visiting with a world traveler right now. I've got a friend of the show, I've got Doug Sandridge. He is the head. Come on over there, an oil and gas executive for nuclear. And he's in Norway right now. Welcome, Doug, and thank you for stopping by the podcast.
Douglas Sandrige [00:00:47] I am honored to be considered a friend of the show. That is fantastic, I love it.
Stuart Turley [00:00:51] I tell you what, you and I had so much fun at Knabe at the live event there. That was such a great time. Thank you. Tell me what you got going on in Norway.
Douglas Sandrige [00:01:03] Well, so let's start as kind of a backtrack a little bit and set the stage that, you know, Norway following World War two was a a fairly poor country. They had not discovered oil. They were still reeling from the after effects of the war. Most of the men had died during the war. And, you know, you have a country of women and fishermen. And I moved here when I was a seven years old. My dad was a geologist, and he worked offshore in Norway, in the North Sea, trying to find oil and gas. And the reality is, is, you know, they drilled all the companies together, including Philips and Exxon and Elfin Egypt. They all drilled 200 dry holes before they discovered oil in the North Sea. And then, as you know now, Norway is the huge big hitter. They are the one of the richest countries in the world, and they produce millions of barrels of oil. And they're they're a huge player on the on the oil scene.
Stuart Turley [00:02:01] And as a side note, this week, a Norway's production three years ago, they were shutting down their biggest fields because of the green movement against natural gas. This past week, they have boosted their output in Norway to one of the the single largest producers in the area, to the UK, to Brussels, to all of the other areas. They'd be dead meat without Norway's natural gas.
Douglas Sandrige [00:02:33] They would. And they have made a complete turnaround from five years ago. They have and they've had some energy, sobriety. They become energy sober and they realize what.
Stuart Turley [00:02:43] A great line, Doug. Energy that's over.
Douglas Sandrige [00:02:46] I like that they are energy sober and you know, they are very clean over here. They have the highest penetration of electric vehicles of any nation. You know, they're very conscious, but they know oil and gas drives their economy. And so they're back on. So here here's the deal. In 19, I moved over here in 1966. My dad worked offshore for two years, drilling dry holes in the North Sea before we moved. And we moved to the Netherlands. And it wasn't for another year and a half after that, before they finally discovered the first commercial oil field in Norway, which is the Echo Fiske field, which is still producing. And the government has just just extended their license to produce, I believe, until 2048. So it's going to be almost 100 years. So they, they, they found this field and then they started, you know, the Norwegians didn't know anything about oil and gas production. And so all the American companies, a few French and English companies that came over here and taught them the trade and they were very astute, very fast learners. Right. Immediately the Norwegians became some of the premier oil and gas people in the whole world. Their their technology, their offshore technology is, you know, not not surpassed by anybody. They are they are state of the art. So they have this oil and gas technology conference. Offshore technology conference has been going on for 50 years. This is the 15th year. They started in 1974. So eco first was discovered in 1969. And by 1974 they realized they needed to have an oil and gas technology conference. And so for most of that 50 years, it's been only an oil and gas technology conference. For the last few years they have increased that. Now they have offshore wind and hydrogen and carbon capture technology. So all of the the whole all the flavors of of energy are represented here. But it's, it's traditionally and still an oil and gas technology conference. And they've never had anything about nuclear energy ever before. But what happened is a friend of mine who's now a friend, he wasn't a friend then, but a friend of mine now who is a postdoctoral fellow at the university here, had been studying. He actually has a background in hydropower. But Norway. He realized that they're going to need more power, and they or they're out of hydropower. They don't have any more to develop. And he says, what are we going to do? And he had the conclusion that Norway needs nuclear energy. And so, so he he started so he went to the, the organizers of the, of the event and said, hey, we need to include nuclear in this offshore technology event. And they said, you're right, we're going to it's totally great. We're going to have nuclear energy. Why don't we have some panels? Why don't we have some people come discuss it? Right. Well, that sort of give speeches. Well, then my friend Martin and and I'm going to let you talk to him here in a few minutes. Oh, cool. And he. But I'm not going to pronounce his last name because I don't want to. I don't want to disrespect me by saying it incorrectly. But he started looking for people to talk about nuclear energy. And the problem is it's so has been so taboo in Norway to talk about it. They people won't even talk about it, not publicly. And there's a huge wave of people the public really want is is yearning for nuclear power. But the government is is really anti-nuclear. And the a lot of the business people, even though they are privately in favor of nuclear energy, they can't come out and say, so he's he's sitting here trying to put together panels to talk about nuclear energy. And the first three people he asks from Norway, say, no, I can't, I can't talk about it publicly. So somehow he finds my name and calls me, and I happen to be on vacation with my mom and wife in Sicily. And I get a phone call from this guy, and he wants to know if I'll come to the conference and talk about nuclear. So I said, heck yeah, let's do it. So that's why I'm here. We're here. And fun. They have embraced it so much that the first day of the conference, they called it Nuclear Monday. And now you cannot you cannot believe that the turnout they've had for nuclear energy.
Stuart Turley [00:06:50] I wonder if he's have you run into or heard Thomas Jam from Copenhagen Atomics? They are building modular reactors over there in Copenhagen.
Douglas Sandrige [00:07:01] Yeah. No, I, I know of them, but I don't I've never I've never met them.
Stuart Turley [00:07:05] So I, I oh that's too bad because you know, it's right around the corner.
Douglas Sandrige [00:07:08] Yeah. He might be here for all I know. Right. So so they had they had four events the first day where they had panel discussions. A lot of the people on those panels were from the US. In fact, one panel I spoke on, I think all but one of the people on the panel were Americans.
Stuart Turley [00:07:25] And then did you see Gray Stankey from there?
Douglas Sandrige [00:07:28] No, I did not see gray hair.
Stuart Turley [00:07:30] And she's probably she probably has to work now.
Douglas Sandrige [00:07:32] Yeah, I doubt it. So it's it's been a true labor of love. And I cannot believe the amount of support we are seeing for nuclear energy. There's a company here. I won't butcher the Norwegian name for it, but it's basically Norwegian Nuclear Company. And it's recently been started by a gentleman who owns an oil company, and he owns an oil company, and he started this nuclear company. And, you know, they're just they're not making any money. They're not building anything. They're trying to figure out, how are we going to bring nuclear to Norway? Well, he agreed to sign our old declaration of war on the gas executives in support of nuclear energy right there.
Stuart Turley [00:08:10] And for our podcast listeners, both, Doug, indulge me assure because being an oil and gas executive, I signed the declaration and I've got a beautiful shirt and I just want to let you know, my wife hates this shirt because it is my favorite shirt. And as she always has to wash this thing so.
Douglas Sandrige [00:08:30] Well, I might need to get you a new one. And Martin, my host here, you know, you can imagine a town of 140 hundred and 50,000 people when they ship in 60 or 70,000 people for a conference. It's a little tough to get a hotel room. And if you can get one, it's going to be very expensive. So the gentleman who asked me to come, he said, I know you're going to have trouble finding a hotel. Wow. And since I'm asking you to come for free, why don't you come stay at my house? I've stayed all week with him.
Stuart Turley [00:08:59] How cool is that?
Douglas Sandrige [00:09:00] And he's wearing his shirt, his oil and gas executives for nuclear shirt today as well.
Stuart Turley [00:09:04] Oh, sweet.
Douglas Sandrige [00:09:05] When you talk to him, you get to see his as well. So it's so we had these we had these meetings. We had these these panels. A lot of Americans here supporting nuclear energy in Norway. And it's funny because a couple of these panels, well, every panel I went to was literally completely packed. Every seat was filled. Standing room only people standing outside the door standing beside trying to listen. And then I remember sitting there for one panel that I was not on a different panel. And right after that, everybody got up to leave. And then the next panel was about offshore wind and the room was only half full. People have this yearning right now in Norway for nuclear energy. So it was it was it's been fabulous. So back to back to the signing of the declaration. I've been trying to get some nuclear executives in Norway to sign the declaration. And again, we're not out to get. Signatures just for the purpose of getting signatures. Were getting signatures because that that adds power to the message.
Stuart Turley [00:10:06] Absolutely.
Douglas Sandrige [00:10:07] And we want to use the message for beneficial reasons. And, you know, this is exactly the reason we want to have this organization so that we can come out and bring gravitas to the argument to the Norwegian people, the politicians. But I was having trouble finding oil and gas executives to sign this, because everyone in Norway is afraid that they're going to say something. The government is going to come down on them or they're going to be persona non grata. But we had we found two executives who wanted to sign it today. So we had a little signing ceremony. And while we were there, we had two other executives walk up and sign it. Wow. Ceremony. So it's been a huge success. And I mean, I just can't say enough about how gratifying it is to be here to to talk.
Stuart Turley [00:10:51] To, you know, the the, the worldwide message around nuclear has to get there. We will not make it to net zero without nuclear. We won't make it to net zero without natural gas. So Norway, being right where you're at with natural gas critical for the EU and nuclear is huge for them.
Douglas Sandrige [00:11:18] I've just been told that a fifth signature is coming up to sign here in just a minute. No. Hey, so here's the here's the deal with Norway. It's very interesting. I was, if you recall, I was in Berlin in 2021. Mark Nelson and some others had encouraged me to go. We're not going to say protest. We went to rally in support of the German nuclear plants, and the fact was they were shutting down these plants. It was total insanity. I mean, total insanity to you're trying to decarbonize your your economy and you're closing down these cathedrals of clean energy.
Stuart Turley [00:11:49] And so I went to deindustrialization. Dug Germany is pathetic.
Douglas Sandrige [00:11:54] Is it's it's sad. And but I was in Berlin and I remember meeting a guy there from Norway who was just sitting here a few minutes ago talking to me. Oh, we were we were in Minnesota. I met him in Norway, and my initial reaction was because we had people from all over the world there at the Rally of Support in Norway. And when I met this guy from Norway, I was like, this is really he's some young kid who doesn't have anything better to do than promote nuclear energy, because why would Norway need nuclear energy? I mean, I mean, honestly, I sit here, they have a an embarrassment of riches. The, the most oil and gas wealth in the, in the Europe they have offshore and onshore wind capabilities. They have 90% of their electricity is produced from hydropower. They've got it all. But this is what's happened. Norway has been the model citizen for decarbonization 80 plus percent, 85, 8,285% of the cars that are being sold in Norway are electric. They they are a they are a model for modern electrification. But they have been able to do this because they're also blessed with hydropower, hydro. You know what we could be a model of decarbonization in in Texas if we had the resources, hydropower resources in Norway. But we don't. Right. And so they they have they have done a great job. But here's the problem. They've decarbonized everything. They have everyone driving electric vehicles. And now they don't have enough electricity. And and they are smart enough to realize that they cannot do it with wind and solar. They don't have good solar resources up here at the Arctic Circle. And the people in Norway do not like when they despise the wind. And so now people are starting to look around and say, what are we going to do? And so they are now taking a serious look and say, as you said, nuclear is the only way, not only for a country as rich as normal with all their hydro. Well, they even they recognize they can't do it without nuclear. So the rest of the world has to have nuclear and Norway set an example. You know.
Stuart Turley [00:14:03] The sad part is, Doug is France was. So you know, the nuclear fleet for the US is what, 109 reactors or something like that. Yeah, France is about 50 reactors, but I believe France is only running at 50% capacity because they've not put the money back into the maintenance of these things.
Douglas Sandrige [00:14:23] They have not done a good job. Although I'm told that they got a renewed vigor. They are nice. They are improving their operational skills. They're improving their their capacity runtimes. They are you know, they're going to build another 6 to 12 plants in the next 20 years. So their cat is fabulous. They're committed to it.
Stuart Turley [00:14:42] Doug, let me ask this. How are we going to get we have zero big reactors in the U.S. right now.
Douglas Sandrige [00:14:49] Yeah.
Stuart Turley [00:14:49] How do we get over this? Because we only have, I believe, three modular reactors in process ready for fuel in the U.S., one of. Them being at Abilene Christian, and they're waiting for fuel. And Senator Ted Cruz has to get involved in order to get them the dang fuel. Yeah, I just visited with Liz Miller, founder of Deep Isolation, a firm do working on getting spent fuel storage, taking care of. That's a huge problem. How do we get past those two issues?
Douglas Sandrige [00:15:23] Well, you know what? I didn't know you wanted to do a three hour podcast today. I mean, there's a lot there, a lot to do with that.
Stuart Turley [00:15:30] Yeah. You and I could talk for days.
Douglas Sandrige [00:15:33] You know, I think there's some things coming down the pike as far as large nuclear coming down the pike here in the U.S.. I mean, people aren't going to announce them right away. And, and but I'm hearing there's some really good things there's going to be there's going to be some large gigawatt scale nuclear reactors that are going to be built in the US. And I'm hearing nice, some new tax legislation that's going to come out that's going to help that as well. And I think you're going to see, you know, private industry like Amazon and the big users, they're going to talk to the regulators and get them involved. They're going to make this happen. So I think it's going to happen. It's you know I know it seems like nothing's happening right now. But as the old analogy I've used before, this is there's a duck sitting on a river, but he's sitting still. But you don't realize how much he's paddling underneath the river to keep him in that same spot. And I think right now there's a lot going on in nuclear that that people don't see. I'm very optimistic that we're going to get some more big reactors built in the US, and I am absolutely convinced in the next five years, we're going to start to see some of the smears and micro reactors coming on as well.
Stuart Turley [00:16:42] I sure hope we can do as good as the UAE did in the UAE, with their reactors providing, what, 25% of their, their and they've got their second half of that on the UAE coming online. Hats off for years under budget and on time. Nice.
Douglas Sandrige [00:17:00] Yeah, that's the way.
Stuart Turley [00:17:02] It should be done.
Douglas Sandrige [00:17:03] Yeah. I'm I'm in. I'm I'm enthusiastic. And here's one thing. We just going to go deep dive into into nuclear waste. But nuclear so called nuclear waste or spent nuclear fuel is often used as a reason why we don't do more. And in for instance, there's a lot of states like California who who prohibit new nuclear to be constructed until the so-called nuclear waste issue is solved. And so, of course, we don't have we don't have the repository out in. And the Nevada that we worked on for many years. But here's what I'm being told, that a lot of these new, especially micro reactors and small modular reactors. So a lot of these advanced nuclear reactors see some margin. These my reactor are used as fuel. So we have the spent fuel that's sitting at all these locations across the country. And we're gonna reprocess a lot fuel. And I'm being told by people at the Department of Energy and in the nuclear industry that we're really not going to need a permanent repository for spent nuclear fuel, for probably nuclear fuel argument or it's not there. It's it has nothing to do with the future fuel for the future where all these, all these small modular reactors and micro reactors are going to use the spent fuel, they're going to recycle it and reprocess and reuse it, and they're going to reuse it over the next 50 to 70 years. So we're not going to really have a need for a permanent repository for nuclear waste for another 75 years. Right. So that that argument that we can't build nuclear reactors now until we figure out the waste issue is total. It's a smokescreen. It's a red herring.
Stuart Turley [00:18:49] And I couldn't agree more. The the waste like Thomas Jam over at Copenhagen Atomics, their thorium modular reactors. I talked to him two years ago and they are coming online. They're going to be building these things and they're using spent fuel.
Douglas Sandrige [00:19:05] Yeah, exactly. So we've got to educate people now to say though, that's, that's a that maybe was an argument five years ago, ten years ago. But now with all this advanced nuclear technology, that is just not an argument anymore. So I am so enthused by what I'm seeing going on in Norway. And this is exactly why we formed this organization to provide and a way of assisting these types of causes. So yes, we got it. We got ourselves in the door in Norway because of this organization. And now we're opening up conversations with people who probably otherwise would not even have comprehension.
Stuart Turley [00:19:40] And I think it's kind of like when you mentioned Chris Wright and Chris Wright was sitting there going, I know people don't associate oil and gas loving a nuclear. I, we love nuclear as oil and gas executives because we're about energy, clean energy and good.
Douglas Sandrige [00:19:59] Reliable energy. But here's something else that people don't think about. And this is what why it's so. Why it's touching. Such a great nerve in Norway is oil and gas companies are very likely to be the best companies that are capable of developing nuclear energy in Norway and other places, because they have supply chain skills, they have project management skills, they have research skills, they have manufacturing skills. These projects are huge. It takes a huge set of skills. And who better than the people who put drilling rigs out in the middle of the North Sea and do it safely and environmentally responsibly. These are the same type of skills that will be necessary to build a great power plant. So I think you're going to see people in Norway coming, Norwegian service companies and oil companies who are actually going to be the leaders of developing the nuclear energy because they have the requisite skill sets to do that.
Stuart Turley [00:20:55] Isn't that fun?
Douglas Sandrige [00:20:56] Yeah, that's very cool.
Stuart Turley [00:20:57] You know, congratulations, Doug. On your on everything that you got going on out there.
Douglas Sandrige [00:21:01] Yeah I still have my real job, which I have to attend to, but this is a it is a fun labor of love. And it's it's great to have you people like you interested in what we're doing and and supporting the cause. I mean, we all got to get the word out on these issues.
Stuart Turley [00:21:16] Oh, I love being. I think I'm your second biggest cheerleader out here.
Douglas Sandrige [00:21:20] Besides my wife.
Stuart Turley [00:21:21] Is it? Well, yeah, but either that or Chris. Right. I'm not sure.
Douglas Sandrige [00:21:24] Oh, stop. I have Martin here. Who is? He's the guy who had the original idea of bringing nuclear energy to this conference, and he's the he's the one who said, let's bring nuclear energy, this oil and gas conference. And he's the one who called me because he couldn't find any Norwegians willing to talk about nuclear energy. I would love for you to meet him and have an opportunity to just chit chat with him a little bit. You can talk to me anytime. You needed to talk to Martin.
Stuart Turley [00:21:50] Oh, absolutely. That'd be great.
Douglas Sandrige [00:21:51] All right, let me see. Let me see if Martin will let me bring him in.
Stuart Turley [00:21:55] Well, Mark, how are you today?
Martin Hjelmeland [00:21:57] I'm good, I'm good, thank you.
Stuart Turley [00:21:58] Oh, no. I love your shirt, by the way.
Martin Hjelmeland [00:22:01] Thank you. Doug gave it to me. Well, at least stay over here. So that was very kind of him.
Stuart Turley [00:22:05] It was very nice meeting you. And I am so excited. Tell me about how you got this portion of the energy conference fixed up.
Martin Hjelmeland [00:22:14] Yeah. No. Well, so this is a bi yearly energy conference, and I think it's one of the one of the world's largest. So nice. And it's been going on for 50 years. And last year or two years ago there weren't any topics about nuclear energy, right? Since I've been in the last couple of years, been looking into nuclear. And I'm thinking it's this wonderful energy resource that we need to look into. Yeah. Said that okay. There weren't any on the program two years ago. There has to be something this year. So I reached out and they were super excited to find someone that actually had some contacts and network within the nuclear industry. So it was it was very racy.
Stuart Turley [00:22:52] Fantastic. How's the attendance? Total attendance for the conference?
Martin Hjelmeland [00:22:57] I'm not sure about the number this year, but it was 60,000 people this visiting last year.
Stuart Turley [00:23:03] That's a lot of energy. Exactly. I mean, that's.
Martin Hjelmeland [00:23:05] It is it is 1100 companies. Wow. From around the world. And you I just walk around there and and there are celebrities and royals every corner.
Stuart Turley [00:23:15] Oh, absolutely. And and so how long have you lived in Norway?
Martin Hjelmeland [00:23:18] Well, I grew up in Norway, so. Okay. I'm Norwegian, so. But I've only, I've only I've studied a year abroad in Atlanta, in Georgia. Oh, okay. At the Georgia Tech, at the industrial system engineering department. That was that was a blast.
Stuart Turley [00:23:35] Fantastic.
Martin Hjelmeland [00:23:36] Yeah, yeah.
Stuart Turley [00:23:37] How do you see the political change for you know, Doug was letting me know some of the political things in Norway because we are having some of the same political things going on in the US that we were talking about a second ago. Doug and I are very hopeful that we are going to get we have about 100 and some odd reactors in the US, 95 somewhere in that range, and we've got to get more because our baseline is not going to be covered. And if if we can get more reactors like the UAE, I would love to have more countries follow. Yeah. For years under budget and it's already providing 20% of their power. Yeah, that's a real van tastic story.
Martin Hjelmeland [00:24:21] But I think you're you're getting very lucky because you have the the Democrats, the energy minister there had this speech for the opening of the power plant that said, okay, we have built two. Yep. Now we need 198 more to go. And I think.
Stuart Turley [00:24:35] They're coming around.
Martin Hjelmeland [00:24:36] They're coming around because it feel it's been in some sort of right part of the the right side of the aisle is much more positive against the positive for, for nuclear. Right. But that's exactly the case here in Norway. I think it's the same case in Australia and some other countries as well. Right on the left side. That's generally where you have the labor unions etc., etc.. Right. Some. How have this more opposition against, against nuclear, which is more hard for hard for me to fathom how this cornerstone of a private industry that would, would, labor so many the people in the local region rather than having if there's stuff made in made in China an imported. Why don't the the left side of the aisle attribute this to this so much here in Norway? And that's why I'm happy that they see that the Democrats in the US have woken up and started to realize that nuclear can play a role in.
Stuart Turley [00:25:29] Well, for our podcast listeners, how do people reach out to you? Is there a LinkedIn address or pronounce your last name?
Martin Hjelmeland [00:25:37] So it's my my full name is Martin Yell. It's the h j. So the H is silent in my in my last name, and I'm okay. Active on LinkedIn. Okay. I find it's a very nice, platform to engage with people and have more open discussion.
Stuart Turley [00:25:52] Fantastic. I'll reach out to you immediately. And and thank you so much for your time. And I want to follow up with you in the future. And in the time that you would like to get your story out, if you have anything else, reach out and let's get a podcast and tell the world what Norway is doing. I think it's wonderful. So I would love you so much and thank you for stopping by the podcast.
Martin Hjelmeland [00:26:15] You're welcome.
Stuart Turley [00:26:16] All right. Thanks. We'll talk to you soon. All right. Hey. Hey. Fabulous. Thank you so.
Douglas Sandrige [00:26:22] Much. I'm glad you got to meet Martin. And, he he is a mover and shaker in Norway. I mean, he single handedly is bringing the dialog to the people in Norway. And the fact that he found me in Sicily because he couldn't find any Norwegians to talk about. He is just so fun. And I stayed with his family this week. I babysit his daughter this morning for a little while, and it's just been it's just been a wonderful.
Stuart Turley [00:26:48] Well, I send me his contact information and we'll put it in the show notes. And again, thank you, Doug. As always, I appreciate everything that you've got going on out there. We'll have your information in the show notes as well too.
Douglas Sandrige [00:27:02] All right. Talk to you soon. Thank you. Thanks.
ENB # 219 Norway’s Energy Revolution: Nuclear Leads the Way